109 - David Neyman, Logitech

David Neyman: ...some folks might know us from some of our higher level partnerships like Lizzo, and that's great and sexy, but day in, day out, we obviously cannot sustain and have budgets just for that. We work with tons of creators from all sizes and all backgrounds. But I think the most important thing is that the process of working with creators, regardless if they're the high tier celebrity talent or they're someone that just starting their journey is really the same. And that work starts both internally and externally. Internally, everything that we do obviously stems from a purpose and a goal. And so for a lot of things that you mentioned in the beginning, that's really around the brand. But we have the same sort of goals and mission when it comes to product as well.

Speaker 2: Explore the minds and marketing strategies behind today's winning brands and businesses. Tap into the power of the creator economy with Earned by CreatorIQ. Here's Conor Begley.

Conor Begley: Hi everyone. Welcome to Earned. We've got David Neyman on the show today, the global lead of talent and content at Logitech. Welcome to the show, David.

David Neyman: Thanks, Conor. Happy to be here.

Conor Begley: And we had quite the time scheduling this, so I am glad. I'm pretty sure I canceled a few times. You may have canceled once or twice. It was a show.

David Neyman: Yeah, I mean, listen, we're in a Q3 or Q4 depending on how you look at it. So I think just the fact that we've been able to do this is already a tick, so happy we're able to make it work.

Conor Begley: Yeah, 100%. Well, let's hop in. I mean, as I dove into the approach that Logitech has taken over the years, particularly during the time that you've been there, it's really quite fascinating because I think you think of it as a technology product, but you guys have done all kinds of stuff with entertainment, celebrities, music, et cetera. How do you guys think about that organizationally because you got your product, and of course your product is integrated into some of that, but a lot of it isn't. How do you guys think about that in terms of the way that you work with talent?

David Neyman: Yeah, so I appreciate that you've recognized that. I think it's definitely, we've been a little bit of everything and all intentional obviously. So I think it all starts at the brand level first and foremost. So when I first joined Logitech a couple years ago, there was definitely a pretty significant focus on what is our brand, what does it represent, and then how do we build some of that sort of cultural cachet or that cultural connection with the brand and consumers. And so one of the best ways I think that we all know how to do that is through talent and creators and building partnerships that are authentic, engaging, and obviously achieve the goals that you have in mind. So for us and myself as part of my role, that's definitely been first and foremost a huge priority. So regardless of size, we typically look at partnerships, these are not vendors, these are true partnerships. And so the process is always the same. So some folks might know us from some of our higher level partnerships like a Lizzo, and that's great and sexy, but day in, day out, we obviously cannot just sustain and have budgets just for that. We work with tons of creators from all sizes and all backgrounds. But I think the most important thing is that the process of working with creators regardless if they're the high tier celebrity talent or they're someone that's just starting their journey is really the same. And that work starts both internally and externally. Internally, everything that we do obviously stems from a purpose and a goal. And so for a lot of things that you mentioned in the beginning, that's really around the brand, but we have the same sort of goals and mission when it comes to product as well. So first and foremost, we understand, try to identify what the goal is and what are we trying to achieve, and then that starts the first thing. And the next thing we try to do is try to figure out, all right, now that we know what that is, how do we extend that and expand that into a talent and creator strategy? Who are the creators that we want to work with? What are the types of creators that we want to work with and really have a vision for what we want that partnership to be? One of the things that I like to do before we even start outreach or before we even get to that conversational point, is sort of sketch out and have a vision of what an ideal partnership could look like. Best case, you've nailed it, worst case, you have sort of a starting point when it comes to those conversations with creators or talent and then move on. Obviously once you've sort of identified all that and you feel good about where you are, you start those conversations. And I think the most important thing for us, and I think for anybody probably listening is just make sure that you're communicating clearly what your goals are, what your intensions for the partnership are, and make sure that the talent and the partner is also aligned. It's not always going to be the case. So I think you have to sometimes recognize that, the last place you want to be is try to identify a partner and activate a partnership that isn't necessarily checking all the boxes and make sure that you're completely aligned. And that goes obviously to internal conversations as well. I think sometimes folks believe or can think that creators or talent are a silver bullet and they can just align on a partnership and they create content or you leverage their brand or their name and it can sort of unlock a lot of value. But I don't think that's necessarily always the case or normally is the case. So you really need to be aligned internally on what you want from this partnership and make sure that all elements internally are on the same page.

Conor Begley: Yeah, I mean it's really fascinating to think about the leap from say, Lizzo to an electronics manufacturer. And I think in a lot of ways, like as I sit here and reflect, like I have a Logitech mouse.

David Neyman: It works.

Conor Begley: But it's interesting to really reflect on where the brand sits in my mind, which is that it's kind of a lifestyle brand in some ways whereas I think a lot of the other electronics that I have, whether it's like I look at my monitor or my keyboard, it feels commodity. And I think in some ways the way that you guys talk about it, this idea of this exists to connect you with the digital experiences that are part of your life, whether that's listening to Lizzo or playing a game or doing whatever, it's just fascinating that you guys have been able to cross that bridge or make that connection in a way that resonates with me personally and I would imagine with a lot of other people.

David Neyman: First of all, thank you. So I guess we were somewhat successful, but I would agree with that. I think we sort of are at the intersection of lifestyle, but there's a lot of things that we do, a lot of our product line that goes beyond that as well. We've got products that are for creators, but they might be a developer or software engineer. So that requires a whole different type of approach, strategy, type of customer that you're speaking to, and then ultimately the type of creator that you are working with that you are trying to reach that customer. So for me, it was actually sort of an interesting challenge when I first joined, and the first part of the focus and priority was really on the brand level. And then as we started going a little bit deeper and going and thinking more about not just brand marketing, but product marketing, on the outside you would think, oh, a keyboard's, a keyboard, everybody needs a keyboard. And you do hopefully, but the intention and the purpose of that specific keyboard is going to be different from customer to customer. And so for us, we have five or six different types of keyboards. You have mechanical, you have ergo, you have ones for Mac. And so once you start diving in deeper, then you realize, all right, each of those has a different audience, has a different price point, has a different sort of customer, and how you engage with them and how you reach them and ultimately the partnerships that you activate in order to do so are quite different. But at the core and you kind of hit the nail on the head, that's from a storytelling and a messaging standpoint. That's what we're trying to do at the heart of it. At the heart of it is this product allows you to do the thing that you do at a very high level. So if you are a coder developer, this keyboard allows you to do that. So how do you tell that story? If you are a creator and your webcam, this webcam allows you to then do the thing that you love to do the most and do it at a high level. And so I think it's finding that balance between yes, trying to, obviously we have a product to talk about, we have messaging, we have guidelines, but at the end of the day we also want to have that emotional element to it as well to really inspire hopefully that purchase intent that happens.

Conor Begley: Yeah, I mean it's really interesting, again, thinking through like, okay, I mean I'm on an Apple laptop and if you were to think about the way that Apple has positioned themselves over the years, it's about culture, it's about creators, creative, talent, et cetera, music. It's funny, I don't know, I'd always thought of it as being more of a commodity space, but it ends up being very much a lifestyle space. So let's talk a little bit about that process. So you've got different constituencies you're trying to communicate with that obviously align with different product lines that you're ultimately selling. What's that evaluation process and sourcing process look like? How do you end up deciding that, yep, Lizzo is the right person, or Roblox is the right area to invest in? How do you make that call? What does that process look like?

David Neyman: Yeah, I mean we just throw up against the wall and see if it sticks. While that process, whether working with talent or finding the right platform distribution for the right program, obviously they look different on the outside, they're completely different types of approaches. From the inside, I think we still ask the same questions and we still go through the same process. And I think the first part is probably not a surprise to you or anybody probably listening. We look at the data and follow, go and see where the data leads. For somebody like a Lizzo or a talent partner, we would look at does their audience correspond with our audience? Does their promotional or marketing cycle reflect what were our trajectory and our timeline as well? So I think that's the first thing you sort of identify, is there they're there to at least start from. And so there's a lot of tools and there's a lot of analytics maybe more than ever before. And sometimes it feels a little overwhelming, but it's a good thing. I'm happy to have it. So that's the data part of it. And then I think there's the other part of it is the art and the subjectivity because then you... and that's why I also don't think hopefully we won't be fully replaced by AI, although I did just see the Gemini, YouTube Gemini Google video and that sort of scared me a little bit, but in an exciting way, you look at the art, you want to make sure that from a brand standpoint their values and their mission aligns with yours. You start to look at the quality of the content of the output that they have in the past, is that aligned with what you envisioning and what you feel is best reflective of the brand. So it's really this balance between data and art and then you try to make the best decisions that you can. And I think regardless of their transformational partnership, like some of these bigger creators and talent that we worked with or maybe what can seem on the surface more transactional, which is what we do maybe a little bit more in the daily where it's your seated partners or your one- off paid partners or even your short- term brand ambassador partners, you're going through everything process and you're really making sure that there's alignment across the board.

Conor Begley: I haven't seen the Gemini video. What happened today?

David Neyman: This was a couple of days ago. I don't know when this is airing, but it's really just amazing to see, it's six minute video that showcases the power of the... I'm probably not the best person to speak to, but it recognizes images, it recognizes drawings, it recognizes the voice in that process and just the way that I'm sure things like this have existed, I looked at it, I was just somebody who casually sort observing this also.

Conor Begley: It's like, whoa.

David Neyman: And with one eye towards do I need to change careers at some point, this is coming behind me. But no, it's just really fascinating. I'm very excited about all of these things. I think there's a world which all of this is actually, it's for good and it really helps us do what we do in a bigger and better way.

Conor Begley: Yeah. Have you seen Pika? It's crazy. That's the one where you can say create a video, which is obviously the next iteration of create a photo, but create a video of an astronaut eating a peanut butter and jelly doing whatever, and it will create a full fledged, fully animated video.

David Neyman: That's amazing.

Conor Begley: And you can say, make it in this style, that style and it will do it. Or you can take an existing photo and say, animate this photo, have it do whatever. It'll take the photo, turn it into an animated photo, have it go. It is crazy. It's bananas.

David Neyman: That's amazing. And as somebody who's just generally excited by technology and advancement, I think amazing, great. But then there is that voice in the back of your head that's like, oh wait, today it's drawing a duck. What is it doing three years from now? That's the part that gives me a little bit pause, but it's just my mindset sometimes. So generally It's a good thing.

Conor Begley: Where it gets really weird is about 20 years from now, 15 years from now, at that point, it'll be essentially about a billion times smarter than a human is kind of what the forecast is. And that's where it's like I don't really know what's going to happen at that point. But again, we can leave that for another podcast. So let's get back to the influencer stuff. So you said, okay, so you've got this process, you've got the data, you've got the kind of soft kind of touch. Does this feel right? Is this in line, et cetera? Obviously Logitech is a very large organization and I think most smaller brands can operate a bit more quickly. There's not as many approvals and that kind of stuff. I'm curious if the idea of brand safety and basically getting more checks off than you had to in the past, has that risen recently because I feel like there's been a number of times where it didn't work out for brands or is that pretty much the same as it has been?

David Neyman: Yeah, obviously I can't speak for every brand. I think for us, I can't say there's been a substantial change just because I think our process has really been pretty tight throughout. I think it's something that we've worked with even since I've been here, since day one with legal and with other stakeholders to make sure that there's a comfort level, there's an understanding. I think we obviously don't just execute partnerships internally, we work with agency partners during that onboarding process. We're overly communicative maybe to a certain degree about those things. So I think for us it's sort of business as usual, but business as usual are really a high standard. But I understand why and how other brands and it's a very important part of the process. I think when you work with, speaking of AI and computers and technology and robots that is not working with creators, it's not working with partners and humans. And so you need to understand that and you need to understand where your brand is willing to go. There's certainly times where there have been creators or talent that have expressed an interest and a desire to work with us. And while we appreciate that and love that they love the product, they are not necessarily the best representative of the brand. So you just have to understand that you have to understand where your red lines are and how you engage around that and what your process is. And for us it's really, it's a collaborative process internally, there's multiple stakeholders. We do try to remove as much, say subjectivity as possible because you don't want to necessarily get to a point where you don't want to work with someone because this person's not a fan of something they might've done. You're really trying to stick to the facts, stick to the legal sort of scope of things. But for us it's really always been front and center and one of the first check marks as we look to navigate a partnership.

Conor Begley: That makes sense. So now that you're closing in on close to three years, well you're past the two and a half year mark, see now you've got some stuff under your belt. I'm curious, over that time, are there any particular initiatives that you think we killed it, this is something that went really well and what was that? And then I think secondarily, is there any that you're like, thought this was going to work, didn't work? And maybe why? And you don't have to get into the specifics if you don't want to, but.

David Neyman: Let's start with the second one first. And there's not a specific example that comes to mind. I think one of the things that has sort of transpired over the last couple of years, thanks for looking at my LinkedIn, your anniversary, expect a little congratulations, is that in the beginning, and this made sense, it was a lot about, and our investment and our strategy and your approach was about brand awareness and affinity. And when you think about that and along the funnel, that's really upper funnel, that's really trying to reach as many people as possible and as many different places and with as many different touchpoints as possible. And so that was really great and I think made a big impact on the brand. But over the years I think some of that transition or some of that focus has transitioned to more how do we take these amazing partners who have great reach and really allow you to do some really great things and have their own production and creative and content prowess and these engaged communities, but how do you sort of move them further into the funnel or mid and lower funnel and really get more sort performance value out of that investment as well. And so I think that's kind of where we are right now as well. There's a balance. Not everything can be conversion and focused and you need a little bit of both. But I would say certainly just being candid there is definitely a challenge of identifying the right creators and who are obviously doing what they do best and having the engagements there and the content is great and you're hopefully leveraging it in ways that go beyond just organic social but conversion, which is potentially a metric or KPI, isn't there. And that's really been something that we look at a lot and is a constant refinement. So the data's there, Hey, this creator has great engagement and they have a big audience. And so you can sort of extrapolate from there like, oh, they should be able to convert their software developer or their lifestyle creator, and this is a pink keyboard and mouse that this should be close to a no- brainer if those exist in influencer marketing. But when it comes time to the activation and the content is out in the world, that piece isn't there. And so I think we're constantly looking to how to improve that, how to identify that. And I think the road to conversion is long and hard and I think it's just about continuing to test and refine and identify the creators that do allow you to do that and then build that partnership with them from there. So it goes beyond just a transactional or one- off and there's more value there.

Conor Begley: Yeah, I think the long- term relationships are definitely something we observe. It's like once you find those people that are good at all areas or at least very good at one or the other in terms of awareness versus conversion, lean into those partners, once you find them lean in. Is that something, would you say that most of your stuff is one- off or is it something where once you find somebody that works, you're like, let's keep working with this person now?

David Neyman: Yeah, I think it's a hybrid. So I think we're constantly looking for those people that obviously perform and when you find them, hug them close and keep them tight and just make sure that they're as happy as possible. And I think the reason it works and is because that's what you've hopefully unlocked is the holy grail. You've created great content, you've found a great audience that resonates with what you're creating and what that creator has sort of communicated through that content, through their assets or through their relationship with their audience. And then a light bulb kind of went off like, hey, not only great for this person, but it can be great for me as well and I want to then go and convert. So I think that's what we're all searching for is that intersection of great engagement and great community and also the ability to then inspire and influence purchase intent. So yeah, constantly on the lookout, Conor if you are that person, happy to kind of test the partnership as well.

Conor Begley: Yeah, totally. So I know that you guys did some really interesting stuff around Roblox. You've kind of dabbled in the metaverse quite a bit. With Roblox, the Song Breaker Awards. I'm curious, is that something that you expect to continue to invest in? Obviously on the topic of technology, it kind of went crazy then slowed down and now it's coming back a little bit. Talk to me about that a little bit, the metaverse, gaming, how you're thinking about all that stuff.

David Neyman: Yeah, so Song Breaker Awards is actually really interesting because it wasn't built for Roblox to begin with. So Roblox was actually year two of the activation. The programs back a bit, was initially intended to celebrate and honor creators who were making a giant impact on culture but weren't necessarily getting the credit and recognition they deserve. So if you think back to 2020 when all these dances were going viral on TikTok and influencing the pop charts and actually making sort of real contributions to culture and also artists bottom line, the actual creators that were creating these trends, they were sort of forgotten or maybe their trends were co- opted to a point where nobody really knew where that trend sort of started from. There's that famous example of, I think it was, I don't want to speak so I'm not going to name the creator, but a creator went on Jimmy Fallon, recreated a bunch of dances and there was a little blowback because none of the dancers were represented there. And a lot of those dancers were bipartisan creators who actually were the ones that sort of started that trend. So we saw that, we're like, this is not great, this is not okay, something needs to be done. And again, going back to our mission and values of creator rights and supporting creators in a way that elevates and inspires them, we decided that there's a their there. And so the team initially in partnership with Billboard developed a chart, called the Song Breaker Chart, which actually now has I think evolved into the TikTok Billboard chart. We'll take a little credit for it, I guess. How do we take this offline or how do we grow this program and really grow the awareness, really try to again, do everything we can to recognize these creators. So we developed a format at a traditional award show format and threw it off on TikTok, which in the moment you're like, great, we're honoring TikTok creators, award show, TikTok, boom, perfect synergy. It makes sense. Come to find out that people don't go on TikTok to watch learn from content or award shows that feel very traditional. It could be fun and could be cool. They'll maybe tune in here and there, it might be the right context, but not the right format and not the right execution on the wrong platform. So we did it and went well, but we took a lot of learnings and one of the learnings was if we were going to bring this to life, how do we find a platform that will engage with this and feel a little bit more native? The world does not need another award show. There's already enough. How do we do this in a way that feels fresh and feels interesting? And so that's really where the conversation and the Roblox dynamic really came in. We looked at other sort of traditional platforms. We looked at do we go and build own our own metaverse and own something completely, or do we go and kind of fish where the fish are and go somewhere where maybe there's a little less ownership, maybe there's a little more structure. You can't do everything that you really want to do, but you're already sort of participating in an established ecosystem. And so for Roblox, this was 2021- ish where at first I was like, oh, Roblox, isn't that a much younger platform? I don't necessarily know if we're it's aligned to sort of our core audience, but the more we discovered about it, I think this was also around the time that they were also making an effort to kind of grow and expand their audience and their footprint and bringing in bigger creators and talent that go beyond just what you sort of understood them to be. And it felt like it made sense. We were able to still take the heart and soul of what Song Breakers was about, which is recognizing creators. Fortunately, these creators also have an audience and that reflective of the Roblox audience as well, and build something that felt native to that platform. It wasn't just like a stuffy award show with creators coming in and out. We created avatars for everyone that we honored. We had a cool performance from Gayle and Lizzo as Roblox characters. And then we integrated the brand in a really fun way. And this was, I think the first time in my experience here where we were able to take the products and do something with it that didn't feel as the way that they were intended. So we had sort of jet skis, we had trampolines. So really made sure that we created something that was organic and native and would be receptive to an existing Roblox community. And it went really well. I think we did almost 7 million visits in three days. We did almost 2 billion on media impressions, 147 countries. People were in the chat saying... things that maybe don't happen to us on a day- to- day basis, but organically came up just because you created an experience and it wasn't meant to be transactional was meant to be an experience where the brand can show up, can celebrate, can find ways to live in that world in a way that makes sense without having to sort of own an entire ecosystem. So that's Song Breaker and we were really excited about what happened. And to your question of what's next or the metaverse, I hope so. But I think what we will continue to do is really what this experience really allowed us to do or really what it represented, which is to continue to innovate and think outside the box and try to find new ways to continue to grow our footprint, continue to reach audiences in different places and places that they're excited about and they're engaging with outside of maybe our 9: 00 to 5:00, if you will, which is TikTok and Instagram and YouTube, et cetera.

Conor Begley: The other area that was really interesting to me from the outside was the Own The 8 Count film. And it's again, not common that you see brands co- creating feature length films. Were you involved in that at all? What was the inspiration behind that? Did you guys consider that a success? If so, why?

David Neyman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean luckily for you in this podcast I was involved in that, so I can definitely speak to it. Yeah, that was a really probably my favorite program to date that we worked on. And the film piece was really an extension. It didn't come to life until the very end. So again, the partnership originated based on brand values, mission and figure out how do we continue to tell stories and how do we continue to impact our creators, who is our core constituency? So the program, actually, our partnership with JaQuel Knight stemmed from our creators for BIPOC initiative, which was really our way to sort of activate the creator community to address barrier space by BIPOC creators. Again, this was 2021, 2022, where there was just a lot of conversation around it and it felt to us like there was a lot of talk, but there was not a lot of action. And so we found JaQuel and loved his story. For those who don't know, JaQuel is the first commercial choreographer to own his own copyright. He is the choreographer behind Beyonce's Single Ladies, Megan Stallion. So pretty iconic. And for him, unlike a painter who paints something and okay, you own that IP or a singer or songwriter who writes a song, okay, you own that. When it comes to choreography and dance, it's a little bit different. You are for hire, you don't necessarily own the work that you've created. And so JaQuel through and his team really win on a limb and sort of change the game and change what's possible for not just choreographers, but the next JaQuel Knights, the next sort of creators, and being able to be properly recognized for the work that you do and also have some ownership of it. Because I think ownership at the end of the day is one of the most important things that we can have in anything we do. Home ownership, ownership in our relationships and stuff, but as well as in our work. So we initially started the partnership with a way to help the next JaQuel. We decided to help 10 up and coming creators own their own copyright to the dance moves that they've created that ultimately went viral on TikTok. And so that was a partnership that everybody was really excited about, that felt needed to us, organic to JaQuel. And then the more that we sort of uncover the story and the process, we're like, there's a film here, Dave, there's a bigger story here. And JaQuel felt the same. This is not a feature, it was a short film.

Conor Begley: Oh, sorry.

David Neyman: It's okay. Maybe one day it'll be a feature. I think we have enough footage to actually make it a feature. We sort of went as a partnership, how do we bring this to life and hand in hand together over the course of the year we developed it, we brought on a great partner in Westbrook to help us bring this film to life. And yeah, to your point, you wouldn't think of a film organically as part of your content output strategy, but again, this felt very consistent with our brands. There was a lot of alignment with our mission and our values, and I think there was just a lot of love for what JaQuel was doing and wanting to continue to support him in a way that can hopefully elevate not just his standing, but his mission as well. And yeah, it was a great experience. The brand, super low touch. There wasn't a ton of product integration, which was completely intentional, and the response has been really amazing. We won a couple awards at film festivals. We'll be at brand storytelling at Sundance next month with the film as well. And I just think that while this isn't necessarily... it's not a new thing, brands like Nike, Patagonia, Chipotle, brands that you think about iconic brands that have sort of built that cultural connection. They've been doing it. They've had some really great success in many different ways. I remember back in the early 2000s, BMW had those great films with Clive O, and so this is not new, but I just think it's a little bit forgotten or because it doesn't feel transactional sometimes or it doesn't feel like the product is leading the brand. It really feels like the brand is leading the brand and it was a really great experience and hopefully one that we can one day do again.

Conor Begley: That's awesome. It's really cool to hear how it evolved in collaboration between the two of you guys from something that just kept growing and growing and growing and got more and more special and isn't frankly done. I don't think it's finished. So I think the last kind of a little bit more fun question, not that everything hasn't been fun, but on the concept of VR, VR also had a moment and I think has slowed down, but I think the recent stuff that you've seen Zuckerberg come around with where it's like could literally see the other person, it looks quite wild. I'm curious, as a fan of technology and as somebody that sits in that space, where do you think that's going? What do you think the future of that is?

David Neyman: Hopefully you hear that deep breath over the microphone. It's a blue mic, so you should be able to hear it. It's a great question. So full disclosure, I've sort of given up on predictions after 2011. I wrote a memo that Google Plus is going to change the whole game and we should delete our Facebooks and just our whole strategy should go on Google Plus. So I've retired, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. I'm just constantly surprised. I don't know where it's going or how this ends. I am constantly surprised though at the speed of the innovation, it seems like I worked in VR in 2016, 2017 through 2018 actually. And it felt at that time there was going to be this Holy S moment where, all right, now that we can put a phone in a headset that everyone's going to want to do it. And that just wasn't the case. We never had our iPhone moment, we never had sort of what is the Netflix House of Cards moment for VR, the experience that everybody needs to go see. But I think there was a lot done then that really allowed us to be where we are today. So I don't know where this goes. I do think that the advancements on the Meta front, the fact that it's not just an isolating experience, which I think from even somebody who worked in VR was just a constant pain point. I want to still connect with the outside world. So I think going into that mixed reality direction, I think big wait and see moment with Apple as well with their headset when it comes out to see how people respond. Because typically if you look at previous indicators, Apple is really the straw that breaks the camel's back in terms of they introduce a product and for the most part, that's what takes it mainstream. And I think then this idea of if that happens, rising tide, and so I think there isn't going to necessarily be one winner. I think it will be an amazing sort of achievement if all of these sort of companies like little startups like Meta and Apple, then kind of can succeed together. And I think that is ultimately what's going to sort of take the mainstream, have find mainstreaming success is one of these sort of transcending and then this mixed reality component as well. Not to mention the role AI will play in that as well.

Conor Begley: Oh yeah.

David Neyman: It hurts your head sometimes to think, at least in my head, I mean there's a lot that's going on in here, but it hurts your head sometimes to think about how quickly things are going to change. We can have this conversation again in two years and I think our minds will be blown at what we're seeing and what we're experiencing, how quickly things have expanded and shifted. And again, I'm hoping it's all for the better and for the good, and I believe that will be the case, but yeah, it hurts our head to thinking about how quickly things can change and are changing.

Conor Begley: The rate at which technology is progressing is wild and not going to slow down.

David Neyman: Let Me ask you and turn the tables for a second. What do you think?

Conor Begley: Oh man, I think you're right in terms of VR being a little bit isolating, right? Because you kind of put it on, you lose sight of the rest of the world. It is a shocking experience. It is weird how much your body kind of takes it as truce, right? Even though it's still pretty early in the scheme of things. And so I remember putting my headset on my son who was three at the time, and it was like a building, so it looked like you were going to fall and he dove to the ground because he thought he was going to die, right?

David Neyman: All those videos on Instagram. Yeah. People who just take it a little to the edge.

Conor Begley: Yeah.

David Neyman: Where did you do that?

Conor Begley: Like you said, I think that Apple is the real... that's where it could open up pretty significantly. And I think their approach of more the mixed reality where it's like I can see, but I can also have essentially virtual screens or virtual information laid out on top of the real world is interesting. Obviously it's not something that I think would I wear that walking around? Probably not. So the other one that's pretty interesting is did you see Humane, H- U- M- A- N- E?

David Neyman: I don't think I've seen that one.

Conor Begley: So I can't remember the guy's exact heritage. I think he was the head of Google X, the experimental division. But it's like a pin you put on your shirt and it is-

David Neyman: Oh I did see that. I did see that.

Conor Begley: Yeah. So there's a bunch of innovation happening, which one's going to break through? I don't know.

David Neyman: The one thing that is that the winner might not exist yet. You think it's Apple, you think it's meta just because... and you're betting person, you've probably bet on them, but there's an argument to be made that the Humane example, there's a garage somewhere in your part of the woods that is just building, doing something that is just going to completely just revolutionize because I think to your point, I'll eat my words in a couple of years, but I don't see us taking the sixth train in New York and having the headset. Maybe. But I think there's something else that is just going to come along that's really going to shock and surprise and really maybe be the thing. I think that's what history has shown us with other stocks, so could be-

Conor Begley: 100%. Well David, I really appreciate you taking out the time and glad we finally got to do this.

David Neyman: Yes, me too.

Conor Begley: Wishing you a great holiday season. Yeah, and I'll see you down in LA or up here soon.

David Neyman: That would be great. Thanks again for having me.

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